Uncovering the Human Side of Cities with Lucinda Hartley

September 19, 2019

What if we measured the success of our cities not by traffic or air quality, but social connection and cultural life? Neighbourlytics is working on building cities that are designed for all of us to thrive in, thanks to co-founder and unlikely tech entrepreneur Lucinda Hartley.

“We do know that when public spaces exhibit certain kinds of activities and behaviour then they’re more likely to be inclusive for women. A big challenge in a lot of different sectors, but urban planning especially, is that a lot of decisions historically have not been made by an inclusive group of people, women in particular.”

In this episode:

  • Lucinda’s background in urban planning and her first social enterprise CoDesign Studio
  • How gender affects how we plan and experience public spaces
  • Not fitting the mould of a tech founder
  • How Neighbourlytics is the using UN SDG #11 as a measurement tool
  • Uncovering informal economies with data
  • “Finding your people”
  • Why it’s essential to focus on building cities

 

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Show Notes

Transcript

 

LUCINDA: In tech, honestly, I feel like a lot of that the perception is my co-founder, Jessica and I, we don’t fit the mold. We don’t look like tech founders. We don’t come from a technical background and therefore, we don’t use all the right language and the right words sometimes. I have never had so many people actually think that I can’t do this. And that’s like a red flag to a bull. We’re like, “Well, we’ll show you.”

VICKI: Excellent.

LUCINDA: Yeah. It just makes me realize how deep that kind of perception is of technology and who can access it.

VICKI: Welcome to SheEO.world, a podcast about redesigning the world. I’m your host, Vicki Saunders. In each episode, you’ll hear from SheEO venture founders, women who are working on the world’s to do list. These innovative business leaders are solving some of the major challenges of our times. Sit back and prepare to be inspired.

LUCINDA: Hi, I’m Lucinda Hartley. I’m co-founder of Neighbourytics, which is a social analytics platform for neighborhoods. And our goal is to create cities that people love and feel connected to.

VICKI: Hi, it’s great to have you here. Thanks for joining us today, Lucinda.

LUCINDA: Thanks, Vicki. It’s a pleasure.

VICKI: We’re so excited to be in Australia these days and to have you in the first cohort is amazing.

LUCINDA: Yeah. It’s not so close to Canada.

VICKI: No, not so close.

LUCINDA: It’s wonderful to have SheEO also expand the movement to our region, too.

VICKI: So amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got to creating Neighbourlytics? Tell us a little bit of your story. Where did you start off in your career?

LUCINDA: Yeah, so my training is in urban planning. And I have actually in a kind of a geeky way wanted to be an architect or urban planner my whole life. I grew up living in cities all around the world and from that experience, I guess I saw how places connected people and culture in really unique ways, and I wanted to initially be an architect because I saw this great opportunity to create these spaces that would connect people. And I ended up studying urban design and planning because that was an even broader way to do that. But the challenge that I found when I started working is that urban planners spend a lot of their time focusing on designing physical environments and especially on very detailed things. I spent some years of my life designing concrete details. And while someone needs to design concrete details, I found that incredibly frustrating and it didn’t really meet my objectives of how we really design places for people.

VICKI: And what are concrete details? What do you mean?

LUCINDA: Actually designing the concrete specifications, so how wide the gap is so it doesn’t crack, what kind of aggregate concrete.

VICKI: Actually concrete detail.

LUCINDA: Actually concrete.

VICKI: Okay.

LUCINDA: Yeah. Detailing. Actually, there’s quite a famous stadium in Melbourne, the MCG, and if the Australians visit there, pay attention to the width of the concrete gaps around there because that’s my work.

VICKI: Okay. Concrete details. Here we go.

LUCINDA: Yeah. And look, someone needs to do that. It’s important. It’s important that the concrete doesn’t crack. But I was much more interested in sort of a systems approach of cities and how people were connected. I left that and went through sort of a series of changes and ended up working with the United Nations with UN Habitat based in Southeast Asia and then in Kenya and was working mostly with informal settlements on either urban upgrading or slum resettlement. And that I learned so much from that experience. It’s really totally reframed how I think about urban development. I mean working with people who have no land, no resources, but are still so incredibly innovative in how they solved problems.

LUCINDA: I really saw from that, that the power of community really changes everything and if you have organized strong communities, even if you don’t have anything else, there is so much power for change. And so when I came back to Australia several years later, I was really curious to see how we could embed some of that community-led thinking into our urban development processes in Australia and did that from a number of years through a social enterprise that I started called co-design studio. And they’re still around. You’re doing fantastic work and co-design is really exists to help their property and planning sectors improve their social outcomes through a whole range of strategy and training and knowledge projects. And I learned a lot from that experience. It was kind of my first venture. So there was a lot of, I guess I learned about impact, but there was also I learnt about growing teams and managing profit and loss statements and various things like that.

LUCINDA: But the big challenge that I found through through all of the different career journeys, whether it was through consulting or the UN or social enterprise, was that we just weren’t measuring the right things when it came to city outcomes. So cities have really good information about how fast traffic is going, how high buildings are, the air quality. But when it comes to people and culture, we virtually have no metrics and it makes it really hard to create change because we can’t manage what we can’t measure. And with my cofounder, Jessica, this was a question that we kept asking ourselves like how can we really create change? We started to explore measurement as a tool for driving change because if we can measure how good or often have bad are social outcomes in cities, then we have a benchmark for changing them. And so that led us to launch Neighbourytics two years ago, which is a social analytics platform for neighborhoods. We use big data and social data to measure the social and cultural life of neighborhoods.

VICKI: Wow. I mean that sounds fascinating and obviously let’s kind of get underneath that. So what are we not measuring that we should be measuring?

LUCINDA: Yeah, so when I look around, in the city that I live in now, in Melbourne, one in three people don’t know their neighbors. Loneliness has now been declared like an emergency state. It’s as likely to kill as smoking or heart disease and you can’t divorce issues of loneliness and social isolation from neighborhoods. They fundamentally connect to each other. Well, you don’t really understand how those things work or the difference between our decisions and how people behave and it’s very hard to create change. The things that we try and measure are levels of social connections, of cultural activity, of the economic and business life of a neighborhood or its community assets and strengths. For every neighborhood, we bring in more than a million data attributes and analyze those to create metrics around well-being, essentially, but that wellbeing in a very holistic way of looking at the economic function of a neighborhood or its community assets of its social connection and cultural life.

VICKI: Wow. Okay. So you started this in Melbourne specifically or across Australia or how did you get started with the idea?

LUCINDA: Yeah, so we’re working around the world already because this is one of the great, exciting things about having a digital product. But we began in Melbourne, we really had been talking about metrics for a number of years and not really knowing that that was going to end up being a new business. We applied for an accelerator called She Starts, run by BlueChilli out of Sydney. We didn’t see ourselves as tech founders at all. I didn’t even really know what a startup was. I was the entrepreneurial definitely I’d always been involved in starting businesses, starting initiatives. But my brother’s a software engineer and I just looked at what he did and thought that looked so boring I don’t ever want to do that. So tech was something that was kind of a bit of a black box for me.

LUCINDA: But then when this accelerator came up, it must have been just on my Facebook feed or something. It was called She Starts and it was just for female entrepreneurs and they were saying that you don’t have to technical, if you’ve got an idea and you know what, we just put in an application and then like completely unexpectedly from more than 400 applications, we were in the in the show list and we’re like, okay, if we’re ever going to do it, it’s now. Just gave us confidence that we could with that we could do this and also connected us with some technical support to get going. So the idea was there, we sort of had a hunch that we would be able to, if we think about our entire lives as digital now. So everywhere we go we’re leaving digital footprints about the places we go and what we value through our social media accounts and smartphones. And we knew about this data that was there, but we needed some structuring in our thinking to look at how we would harness that data to create meaningful insights for the property and planning sector.

VICKI: Wow. Okay. So you got started and what are you starting to notice with your, a million data points for neighborhoods is wild. Like part of the challenges, we have all this data, but how do you create a story out of that? How do you understand the insights that are part of that? What are the indicators for well-being in communities. Take us on a bit of a journey with that.

LUCINDA: Yeah, absolutely. And that is one of the challenges that the volume of data these days isn’t the problem, but creating meaningful insights is the real challenge. What we’ve been looking at over the past year, at the end of the accelerator, we brought on a head of analytics. A brilliant female data scientist who’s written all our algorithms. We’ve been using that product. We’re now operational in 10 countries. It’s growing really quickly. And so what we’re able to learn from this data is just really interesting insights. It’s like putting an x-ray on your neighborhood and seeing it in a way that you didn’t see it before. So in some ways it confirms what we knew about some things like active places like public spaces that have a lot of activity and events going on also have stronger economies around that area and urbanplanning theory would talk to that, but it’s really great to see the evidence of that.

LUCINDA: But then there are other things that are really surprising that we find in a lot of neighborhoods where, particularly new neighborhoods, green field areas they look like vacant or under utilized to drive around. You don’t see any people. But behind closed doors, there’s this incredible network of home businesses, there’s like startups and Etsy stores and other things and some of the developers who have been working with there were really surprised by this because those kinds of initiatives that they were programming or building in their early neighborhoods were very much like parent’s groups and playgrounds and children’s facilities and I guess this assumption that there was a lot of young families living there and that’s true, but this has highlighted that are also entrepreneurs and business owners and they’re putting a lot of time and investment into running business meetups, building coworking spaces and really changing the way that they facilitate those community connections with the better information.

LUCINDA: And the next stage for us is really, now that we’ve established I guess quite a large database of insights, actually calibrating this data set to be a rating tool. Because what’s missing in the sector, because we’ve never been able to measure sexual connection or well-being at scale before in any kind of consistent way, there isn’t a benchmark, there’s no rule arch and no what good and bad looks like and so we’re actually starting to now calibrate and test this data so that we can see, well these are the indicators that drive good outcomes and these are the ones that you’ve got to watch. If you may be trending into a dangerous area. That’s a really exciting process and we’re able to calibrate that across Australia initially but also use some of that global data sets as well.

VICKI: Are the indicators driving the same outcomes in all the same places or do you see different cultural…

LUCINDA: No. It’s very different, I mean we had to opportunity to do some work in Nairobi recently. The interesting thing there is we gathered more data from Nairobi than any other project that we have gathered to date. It had three times more data than Singapore’s Chinatown. It’s just off the charts busy. Everything is mobile there. Every street hawker, everyone has a Facebook account, a business account. There’s just so much data. But we noticed new trends there. We looked at the central city. We also looked at some informal settlements and some other university areas and the central city was incredibly dense and they were just, well I guess they would just, we had to recalibrate the categories that we analyze the data because there were things like extraordinary numbers of DJs and we don’t have a business category for DJs normally because there’s not that many.

LUCINDA: Yeah, and then we’re able to look at things like informal business activity, not just an informal settlement. So we noticed that in cities like Australia too, with home based businesses, but where’s the informal economy and the informal services happening. And then I guess the lens that we are particularly looking for in Nairobi but one that’s applicable around the world is trying to get better metrics for public spaces. Usually public spaces are measured by how many meters squared do you have. Okay. That’s it’s good that you have it, but a bad public space and unsafe public spaces is going to be a massive distraction for your neighborhood, not an asset. So we’re looking at ways of measuring perception of safety, particularly an activity from social data. And it’s a particular issue in Nairobi where this more thefty concerns perhaps in public spaces, but it’s an issue globally.

VICKI: So let’s talk about gender for a second because I wonder about this. As a man is walking down the street in Nairobi into a public space versus a woman, are you tracking gender differences in cities and how we need to think about that? Because most of the people that are at the table that have been designing a lot of these models have not been us. So how does that start to influence things?

LUCINDA: Yeah, so unfortunately at this stage, because the way we aggregate data to anonymize it, we aren’t able to look at gender desegregation right now. But what we do know is that when public spaces exhibit certain kinds of activities and behavior, then they’re more likely to be inclusive for women. And a big challenge with many, many sectors, but urban planning also is a lot of the decisions historically have not been made by an inclusive group of people, particularly not by women.

LUCINDA: Even in cities like Melbourne, which has a reputation of being one of the most livable cities in the world. A third of women don’t feel safe in public space.

VICKI: Which is just amazing.

LUCINDA: Which is an extraordinary, you just can’t believe how that’s even possible.

VICKI: Is that like kind of a normal stat or is Melbourne off the charts for that?

LUCINDA: Well, Melbourne’s off the charts in general livability. It’s always top of the list whenever the global list in places to live. But in terms of safety, it’s actually very safe. But perception of safety is very low. And that’s the challenge. Cause people often measure safety by crimes statistics, but crime only speaks to when an incident was reported and what we know with a lot of particularly gender based violence and another perception of safety in particular, and how if you feel unsafe, you’re not going to fully participate in public life because you’re not going to walk that way. You’re not going to go to that thing. You’re not going to engage in that way. So really, really big issue. So while we can’t desegregate our data by gender, we can look at proxies for what would make places safe by looking at the types of business activity that the types of activities that are going on, the events, the diversity of cultural life picked up in the different types of events that occur, for example.

VICKI: So presumably if you’re pulling in all these data points from both genders now that’s included in the data. So it’s likely to be more inclusive, whether or not women feel this way or men feel this way, at least both are being asked.

LUCINDA: Absolutely. Yeah and I think the interesting thing about observational data rather than survey data is that you also get around at the kind of language biases and things like that because we’re just looking at lat-long data points. It’s not posted in English or others, which has often a barrier for serving for example. You’re just looking at the behavior.

VICKI: Wow. Okay, so dream state five years from now, what has your technology, because you are a technology company, right?

LUCINDA: Yeah. Yeah.

VICKI: What is your technology enabled? Do you hope this is going to help us figure out?

LUCINDA: One is the knowledge because you can’t change how cities work and if you really know how they work and so where we’re building it and an understanding of how they work. But the big game changer for us is at scale this has enormous implications for policy and and private sector decision making. So currently we work very closely with the property sector and we’re already seeing, on a smaller scale, decisions being made differently because of this data. We’re going to build a coworking space instead of this kind of community facility or we’re going to invest in business meetings rather than parent’s groups because of this kind of database, really exciting stuff.

LUCINDA: But at scale, this has the ability to actually set a new benchmark for how we measure city performance, that we’re no longer relying on air quality and traffic as our benchmark for success. That we’re actually measuring things like social connection and cultural life as our measure. And we have some very real opportunities to do that. So part of this pilot in Nairobi was that we’re talking to you on habitat and how we can embed this data as one of the measurement tools for SDG 11 which is on cities and public spaces. So we have that kind of opportunity or working on projects in Australia which are around measuring well-being as the primary framework for how we think about smart cities investments. We have some very big opportunities, I guess from a decision making in policy perspective of how we can really drive systemic change.

VICKI: That’s amazing. And so one of the things we talk about a lot at SheEO is the relationship versus the transaction and really understanding that the connective tissue in communities comes from these embedded relationships which in many ways are, there’s just not a lot of transparency around them. Even what you said like I just love this x-ray on top of your community. This is like a fantastic metaphor. Not a metaphor but like the image of it. That is amazing because what’s really happening? You know? What are people actually doing? I think about this all the time in my community.

VICKI: I live in Toronto, in Canada and I walked down the street. Now coffee shops are full all day long. What are all these people doing? Which is amazing though because the gig economy and all the new ways people are working, but to have a sense of the health in my community, I wanted to know that. I want to know what that looks like. Do you imagine that this information will sit in some kind of dashboards for us to look at it? What are the pain points in our communities? How can we help? I would love to do that. I get my energy to create more connective tissue in my community. But I have no idea where to start.

LUCINDA: Yes, and that’s a really common question. I mean people don’t, they don’t even have a way of expressng, I’d love get more involved in my neighborhood, but what’s even going on? How do I even find that out? So yeah, absolutely. That is our objective that at least at a broader level we will be able to make the data publicly available. We will be able to integrate it with a whole lot of other platforms and make it really visible for people. Right now, just because we’re just under two years old, we’re focusing on more proprietary products for the property sector, but our end game is a much more open model.

VICKI: The concept of space and place is really very important, right? Especially at when we think of economic development. And so I wonder chicken or the egg kind of on this one. Part of it is what wants to emerge or what is emerging or what is true right now and if we want to shift things, are we able to, are you seeing people do transformational work in communities based on the data or is it still early?

LUCINDA: It’s early in that, neighborhoods move and iterate, pivots, et cetera, slowly. So we have a year’s worth of data and we have seen like changes in that time, but we suspect that the real change is still to come. But in terms of the chicken and egg, I like to think of places as like hardware and software and you need both. You need the bones of the hardware of the place, but it doesn’t mean anything unless you have the software and the people in the cultural life. Traditionally we have this, I say we as like the planning sector they have this kind of build it and they will come kind of mentality. Like if we get the streets just right in the houses just right, et cetera, it’s going to be great. But the reality is that people are like messy and unpredictable and they don’t behave exactly how you want them to behave and that approach never works.

LUCINDA: So you need a much more collaborative model that actually really values the human side of neighborhoods. And interestingly, you can have a neighborhood which has software without the hardware, like say a market or something like a pop up market or something, it’s a very ephemeral, which is just people with not much infrastructure and it works. But you if you have just the hardware side and not the software side, it doesn’t work. You just have liken really isolated kind of concrete jungle. So we’re really looking at ways that we can, I guess strengthen community voices by highlighting who and how people are behaving in neighborhoods. We’re also challenging how people think about perception because typically any understanding of social life is done by surveying, but that’s tends to be quite a limited point of view and people also respond in surveys often not particularly accurately. Like, how often do you go to the gym? Oh whoa, every day. But my location data will show a different story. So we actually pick up a much more accurate kind of behavioral patterns and things like surveys that she can then drive better outcomes.

VICKI: So when you were getting started with this, I mean I remember you saying to me when we were talking in Australia that you were sitting in these meetings with urban planners who are looking for data and you’re like, there’s gotta be more to this, right? They’re missing of this stuff. When you said that this is what you wanted to start, what kind of feedback did you get from your peers?

LUCINDA: Yeah.

VICKI: Like are you on the friend?

LUCINDA: It depends who? Initially peoples went, well that’s an interesting idea. But in the sense that you think that they’re thinking, I don’t think that’s going to work. You’re not going to use social media to measure cities, it’s going to be a [inaudible 00:21:08] gamechanger. It’s going to influence policy and everything. And people like, yeah, okay, nice. That’s a good idea. And I still think that the data analytics, especially social data analytics is so new that it requires a fair amount of understanding to really trust that data and I understand that because I’ve been on that journey myself, but I now really do trust it and I think we should increasingly trust it because it’s only becoming more robust.

LUCINDA: So there’s that kind of side. But I think what I have found working in tech as opposed to working in property and consulting is that I have never, well not maybe not never, but not recently, have people not really questioned that I could do this. In my early career designing concrete, actual concrete details and things like that. I mean, yes, I faced gender barriers being in a very male dominated workplace, but I never felt that no one handed me a task thinking, I don’t think she can do this. In tech, honestly. I feel like a lot of the perception is, my co founder, Jessica and I, we don’t look like, we don’t fit the mold. Like we don’t look like tech founders. We don’t come from a technical background and therefore we don’t use all the right language and the right words sometimes.

LUCINDA: I have never had so many people actually think that I can’t do this and that’s like a red flag to a bull where like, we’ll show you. But yeah, it just makes me realize like how deep that kind of perception is of technology and who can access it.

VICKI: Literally, it is such a competitive advantage to be a woman in the world right now from my perspective because all of these ideas we come up with, people are like, what? What are you talking about? That’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. Why would anyone do that? And you’re like, awesome, if you don’t understand this, I’m on the right path. Because it’s almost like we have to, I personally feel like we have to redesign almost everything that’s out there in the world. And so you coming in with this lens with whatever your point of view is on it saying we’re missing this whole other part of humanity that’s like not part of this discussion. The relationships, the connections that exist in our communities and using the social data to track that to create a more holistic picture as opposed to the very narrow world we’ve been in is a massive opportunity, right. How do you bolster yourself? How do you find your people. How do you [inaudible 00:23:15] around you, who lift you up as you’re going through this process? Because it’s obviously isolating sometimes.

LUCINDA: Yeah, absolutely. She is a massive opportunity in that way. We’ve already been able to connect with so many people and we’re only just a few weeks ago in, I can’t wait. We just closed our first seed investment round and interestingly, all of our investors are women.

VICKI: Amazing.

LUCINDA: Very senior, very experienced women in the property sector and other aligned industries and that was kind of actually not by design, but when we actually set up our cap table recently to finalize that, we’re like, they’re all women.

VICKI: Yay! I like that.

LUCINDA: Yes. Basically. So they’re a huge support as certainly She Starts and other programs like that have helped, I guess give us some confidence and networks in the technical sector that we really didn’t have before, we’re still involved in that. I mean, I think you’re right that it is a definite advantage to be a woman right now. There’s so many different ways that we’re able to access support. It doesn’t mean that it’s easy, but I do feel that we have an increasing network of people that we can draw on.

VICKI: But I think partly for me it’s really just more about the perspective too, right? Like there’s literally half of the brain of the planet has been missing, right. We get to bring it in and share a different perspective. There’s a lot of things that have been missed, right? Incredible things. And I just, I wonder a lot about that finding your people along the way and how challenging that was. So you were in the property sector, how hard was it to get that first person to go, oh my God, this is amazing. It makes sense to me.

LUCINDA: Yeah. Initially I guess the very, very first people, we had some amazing early adopters who really worked with us from the beginning, but it’s probably been the next kind of early majority, which is still, you get sort of questioning looks and things like that and it’s part the product is new and crazy, but it’s also part that we don’t fit the bill. And I think that that is actually the greater challenge that we’re finding is that even though we have a lot of support and networks to really help us navigate startups, this is kind of set of rules, that are meant to sort of follow that you meant to do things this way and that way. And a lot of them just make good business sense, but sometimes you just go, well, like why? Why do we need to do it that way?

VICKI: Yeah. Don’t do that.

LUCINDA: It really needs to be a valid reason.

VICKI: Yeah. I mean if it doesn’t feel right, if it feels confusing, it’s not you. Yeah, it’s definitely don’t do that, run the other direction. So UN sustainable development goals. Can you talk a little bit about how big of a problem is SDG 11. How big of the challenge is that and what are the things that are going to crack that open?

LUCINDA: So I had the opportunity when I was working with the UN habitat, in my early career, to be involved in shaping some of the indicators of SDG 11 I was appointed to what they called at the time, a youth advisory board where they had 12 youth advisors from around the world involved in some of those discussions. It’s just an extraordinary opportunity. The particular working group that I was part of what’s around public space, SDG 11 has a lot of different ones. But the big debate at the time was should there be a sustainable development goal on cities at all? And the argument was, well currently half the world lives in cities by 2050 depending on which metric you use, 70 or 80% of the world is going to live in cities. So if we don’t really head on tackle cities, we’re kind of missing all of humanity.

LUCINDA: And so fortunately there is a goal in cities and it has a whole lot of different indicators from inclusion, infrastructure, collaboration and engagement, others. But I guess my interest is being in the one on public space. But yeah, I do see that SDG 11 because the majority of the world lives in cities and many of our other issues are connected in some ways to our, and when I say cities, it’s human settlements, living environments in some way, it’s so critical to get that right.

LUCINDA: It’s one of your determinants of your life expectancy is your postcode, so you could have this kind of disadvantage from birth just based on like your postcode, where you’re born. And so leveling that kind of playing field is something that we’re really excited about.

VICKI: Yeah, I mean that would just be incredible if you could look at, OK, so you’re already behind 10 years in your life span by being born in this postal code and therefore, here are all the different indicators that we need to double down on or whatever. Improve those over time. Yeah, I mean the implications from policymaking are very exciting, right? If you actually figured that out.

LUCINDA: That’s right. Yeah. And I think from a government perspective, a lot about government clients that particularly interested to look at like indicators of vulnerability or health inequalities and able to do that at scale with our data. So that’s really exciting. We are just beginning those conversations.

VICKI: Very cool. And so can we just end on your why again? Like why does this matter to you? Why? Why get out of bed every single day and do whatever it takes to make this happen despite all the odds?

LUCINDA: Yeah. I believe that it’s possible to solve this challenge. So at Neighbourlytics, we’re creating cities that people often feel connected to. We believe that that’s like a fundamental, if you get that right, all of your other kind of life, pieces of your life will more likely to fall into place, if you have good social relationships, if you have everything else. We are passionate about creating that. I get out of bed because I love that and my whole life and career has been about cities. But I also fundamentally believe that it’s possible to solve this and I also believe that now is the time because if we have this window of time between 50% of the world living in cities now and 80% by 2050, that’s this study a gap that we have to get a rise, not that low.

LUCINDA: Our biggest risk is not scaling fast enough. It’s like getting to scale so that we can get ahead and make sure that all of that city that needs to be built in the next city is, is built with like people in mind and people at the center.

VICKI: Beautiful. Well, thank you for everything you do.

LUCINDA: No thank you.

VICKI: We’re just absolutely thrilled to be supporting you and thank you to the women of Australia who voted for you. Can’t wait to see how you tackle this SDG and how you change cities for the better for all of us. Thank you.

LUCINDA: Yeah, no, thanks Vicki. We couldn’t be more thankful for SheEO and the activating network and everything. It’s an extraordinary model and were thrilled to be part of it.

VICKI: Awesome. You’re the best.

LUCINDA: Thank you.

VICKI: Thank you for listening to the SheEO.world podcast. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with a friend and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. If you’d like more information about SheEO, please visit us at sheeo.world. That’s S-H-E-E-O dot world.

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