Getting at the Root Causes: Using Business to Transform Systems

May 14, 2020

This podcast was recorded live from the Wisdom Room Stage at the #SheEOGlobalSummit hosted in Toronto, March 9 and 10, 2020.

Moderated by Tatiana Fraser, the co-founder of The Systems Sanctuary, panellists Teara Fraser, CEO of Iskwew Air and Raven Institute; Hannah Cree, co-founder and co-CEO of CMNGD; and BE Alink, founder of the Alinker, share insights in to how business innovation can alter the status quo by shifting functions and structures, creating a better world for all of us.

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TRANSCRIPT

Jessy Wang:

Welcome to SheEO.World, a podcast about redesigning the world. This is a special episode, recorded live at the first ever SheEO Global Summit, hosted in Toronto, Canada, on March 9th and 10th, 2020. The SheEO Global Summit was a two day conference that gathered hundreds of people in support of the theme, reorganize.world. What does this mean? Well, as the founder of SheEO, Vicki Saunders says, “Everything is broken. What a great time to be alive.” Collectively, we have everything we need to make positive change. We took action together at Global Summit and started working on the world’s to-do list in a variety of sessions. Over the two day conference, guests participated in keynote presentations, wisdom sessions, and get to action workshops, all centered around what we can do to reorganize our resources, systems, and structures to create a better world, with SheEO ventures and activators leading the way.

Jessy Wang:

This session is called Getting at the Root Causes: Using Business to Transform Systems, and features a diverse panel of powerful voices. Recorded live on the Wisdom Room Stage, this panel discussion was moderated by Tatiana Fraser, the co-founder of The Systems Sanctuary, a global peer learning platform for systems leadership.

Jessy Wang:

Our panelists include Teara Fraser, the CEO of Iskwew Air, Raven Institute, and the chair of The Indigenous LIFT Collective. Teara’s entrepreneurial spirit takes her into a new arena as the first indigenous woman to launch an airline in Canada. Hannah Cree, the co-founder and co-CEO of COMMONGOOD, an award-winning social impact business. Hannah is also a leading Alberta advocate for compassionate business innovation and education with ATB Financial. And BE, the founder of the Alinker, a non-motorized walking bike without pedals. The Alinker is a SheEO Venture and vehicle for change. BE is a paradigm shifter, and reverse design is BE’s life practice.

Jessy Wang:

Now, please enjoy this dynamic conversation and wisdom session, getting at the root causes, using business to transform systems.

Speaker 2:

Please welcome to the stage, our host, Tatiana Fraser.

Tatiana Fraser:

Hi everyone, welcome. Sorry, we are a few minutes late, but we are really excited to dive into this conversation. So my name is Tatiana Fraser. I go by she/her pronouns. I’m the co-founder of The Systems Sanctuary, which is a global peer learning platform for systems leaders. This is my first summit, I’m so excited to be here. The energy is so inspiring, and I’m a partner. I’m in because I’m a social innovator, I’m an entrepreneur, and I love the creative energy that is buzzing around here, and the potential for creating change through entrepreneurship.

Tatiana Fraser:

So welcome to the Wisdom Stage, where we are featuring panel discussions with Q and A. We’ll have about a 20 minute conversation with our panelists, moderated by myself, followed by a Q and A with you, our audience, during which we’ll have volunteers in the audience with microphones who will help us. So the wisdom discussion is called Getting at the Root Causes: Using Business to Transform Systems, part of systems.world track, and will feature a diverse panel of powerful female voices.

Tatiana Fraser:

So I’m very thrilled to invite to the stage, first, Teara Fraser, she’s CEO of Iskwew Air, she’s CEO of the Raven Institute, and chair of Indigenous LIFT Collective. Teara’s entrepreneurial spirit takes her into a new arena as the first indigenous woman to launch an airline in Canada. How amazing is that? Our second panelist, Hannah Cree, is the co-founder and CEO of COMMONGOOD, an award-winning social impact business. She is also a leading Alberta advocate for compassionate business innovation and education with ATB Financial. And our final panelist is BE, the co-founder and SheEO Venture of the Alinker, vehicle for change. A paradigm shifter, reverse design is BE’s life practice. Let’s welcome to the stage, Teara Fraser, Hannah Cree, and BE.

Tatiana Fraser:

Welcome. Just to get started, we’re talking about systems change, and just to set a little bit of context, when we’re changing systems, we are altering the status quo by shifting functions and structures, and we can be working to do system change from many places in the system, so we can be innovating new ideas, we can be doing things differently, and here, we’re working outside of the system, disrupting the status quo, and working to build momentum and alignment, to kind of influence incumbent systems or unhealthy systems. But we can also be working to do systems change within existing systems, working to de-center power, shifting resources, working to change the rules, and procedures, and policies, and integrate new practices. And systems change is also about culture shifting. So we can be working at the level of influencing attitudes, and beliefs, and mindsets, and values. Often, these are the artists working to kind of shape narrative, influence stories, working with the media.

Tatiana Fraser:

So just to contextualize, what are we talking about when we’re doing systems change? So we also know that systems change is a marathon, not a sprint. It’s hard, hard work and we don’t always have the answers, and then that’s why it’s so important to gather together, and to gather the learning and share the learning with people who are in the doing of the systems change work, in the messiness of it, and in the hard parts. So today, we’re going to get to deep dive with our panelists. I’m going to take us deep quickly, hopefully, so we can hear some of the powerful learnings that you’ve gathered along the way as systems leaders.

Tatiana Fraser:

So the first kind of question to get us started. So systems change requires courage and a willingness to stand up, and to be a disruptor, to be disruptive. In innovation speak, we really value disruption, it’s celebrated. Disruption is like innovation, right? Yet, for many women and many people, this can also be a costly choice. Sometimes it’s not a choice to be a disruptor, just by being, we are disruptive, but it’s also costly. Speaking out can be met with disapproval, even punishment sometimes, and… excuse me. We risk our security, kind of our secured status, and some cases, it can actually put our bodies on the line. So this is important to acknowledge. So just to get us started, can you talk to us about where your source of courage comes from, to be a disruptor, if you relate and identify with that? And what risks you’ve taken in your work as systems changing people, and maybe what called you to this, what was the calling that brought you to your idea, your innovation, your disruption?

Speaker 3:

Justice is the answer to the first question, that drives me to do what I do. Systems are not designed for the well-being of people. So that’s always the problem also that I have with the word systems change, as if systems want to be changed. Systems are super effective, they’re just not designed for our well-being. So justice drives me. That also gives me the courage, if that’s a… I don’t know, I just can’t help myself. You have to do that. I don’t think that’s courage, it’s just I can’t not do that. And what was the last question? Or you can pass the [inaudible 00:00:09:10].

Tatiana Fraser:

Yeah, so the question is, what’s your source of courage and what was your calling to do this? And Hannah, maybe do you want to go next?

Hannah Cree:

When I was 16, I was downtown Vancouver skipping school with signs and protesting against, it would be the Gulf War back then, ’90s, and my grandmother said to me like, “What are you doing?” and she was talking to me about systems saying, “You really need to work within the systems to understand them, and then maybe you can change something within it.” And then I got to SheEO, and Vicki was like, “Fuck that.” And so, it was really great, because it was one of those moments where for me, it is injustices that gets me up. When I see that someone’s mistreated or things are not going well, I’m like, “Okay, we’ve got to change this, we got to change this!” And so, I’ve always had this piece where I can look at systems but then figure out, okay, how do we go out from that? And it’s just this is how the world is set up, and I think since a kid I was just like, “Why? Why? Can it not be different?”

Speaker 5:

It can. It can be different. I have no idea whether I’ll answer any of your questions or not, but I’ve got some words that are coming, so we’ll see. Hopefully they align in some magical stretch. Are we having fun yet? So change first came to me as this, hmm, this is pretty important. Was learning about the concept of the edge walker and isn’t it great when all of a sudden you get language for something that helps you make total sense out of something. You’re like, “Oh that’s that thing I don’t know how to make words for. Now I have a word that’s great.”

Speaker 5:

And then we changed the word later on because we decided we don’t like it, et cetera. But this idea of the edge walker, being the disruptor of the system. But the connection I want to make about that now… That’s Margaret Wheatley’s work around the edge walker is seeking to disrupt the system, often invited into the system to do the disrupting. And then usually what happens is the disruptor either gets ejected or self-selects out. But what’s fascinating to me about what she talked about is how the edge walkers need to fuel. And in order to fuel, they need to, like any organic system, they must make touch with one another, right? And that’s what we’re doing here now is we’re refueling, we’re making touch with one another, so that we have enough fuel to make the changes that that need to happen. So that’s one thing I had to say. I don’t know. There was a bunch more in there.

Tatiana Fraser:

We’ll get there.

Speaker 5:

I think we will get there.

Tatiana Fraser:

That’s great. Thank you. And that does actually kind of lead us to kind of where the second question-

Speaker 5:

I planned it like that.

Tatiana Fraser:

Yeah. So in our work with systems leaders, we know that when you’re in the thick of it, when you’re in deep in your work, it can be overwhelming and many people can feel isolated and alone in their work. It can be filled with vulnerability and we don’t have all the answers. We can live through moments of uncertainty. Many people that we work with find themselves on the verge of burnout, like hitting that wall and that edge and just highly stressed. So my question here is what keeps you going and gets you through? What keeps you fueled? I think coming together like this is one really key thing. But what keeps you going and what can you share about your personal journey of persistence and commitment and drive?

Hannah Cree:

So in my work, we work with people who are homeless and poverty and addiction. And everyone believes that there’s a stigma that people have just made bad choices in their life. And this is why they’ve ended up on the streets. And what we’ve discovered is that it’s trauma, it is sexual abuse, it’s emotional abuse, and it’s repeated in all through childhood. And the research says that the opposite to addiction is not sobriety. The opposite to addiction is connection. It’s community. And so in my systems change work over the last three and a half years, we thought we were coming in and we’re like, “We’re going to help and get their ID back and get a bank account and give them a job through common good and housing.” And we did it. And we’re still not seeing the success because we are not addressing the trauma and ensuring that they’re connected in the community and doing all of these pieces.

Hannah Cree:

Because trauma is just isolation. And so for me, the last year I’ve never cried so much until I got to SheEO. It’s just nuts. And this last year was the hardest year in our business, we’re year three and it’s been the hardest piece. And what has kept me going is, no joke, was the SheEO community and the other women that I know that are doing deep systems change work and so there’s a point at which it’s like what’s the other option? Either live in this system or I don’t. And so for me it’s just been, if I believe that the opposite is connection, then I actually have to double down in my own world and get those people to support me for when… Because you will go down. It’s hell. So connection.

Speaker 3:

Systems are traumatizing for people who try to survive because the systems are not designed for our wellbeing. That is where you get traumatized. So where I can continue to go is to focus on the stuff that I can do in connection with the people that I do work with. And I always think of the Alinker as a vehicle for social change. It’s not about the bike itself. Yes, that has benefits and yes, people can come to SheEO events who could not otherwise travel and have her full independence and agency while being here. But so yes, that’s true. And the Alinker is a vehicle for change because if there’s one thing that I’ve discovered over time is that isolation is a way bigger problem than any kind of symptom for a disease. And that isolation comes back in whether you work with homeless people, whether you work with indigenous people, try to do an airliner, try to work with people with mobility challenges.

Speaker 3:

It is all the same. People get f’ed over by the system because it was never designed for us. So we need to be in connection and be in networks like this where it is literally lifesaving. If I tried to get money to survive, I will ram into the walls of the current system, I get traumatized, lonely, isolated, depressed, and all the rest of it. Been there, done that. Since I met SheEO, and I was part of this community, all of a sudden there’s women that’s like, “Listen, we want you to succeed. What do you need? We believe in you.” Changes everything, everything. And it really doesn’t matter what your business is, it’s just a vehicle to talk about exactly the same thing. How can we be in connection with each other and how can we be, who do you want to be in this world and them being congruent.

Speaker 5:

The idea that love… I never usually go on stage without a love button. I’m actually feeling a little bit naked without my big love button. Oh yeah. Thinking about social, economic and ecological justice is simply love applied to systems. Social, economic and ecological justice is simply love applied to systems. We’re saying the same thing and just a little bit of a different way and I really appreciate that a lot. Love is a big thing for me. And so now I’ll answer one of your earlier questions, right? How do you do it? What calls you? What moves you?

Speaker 5:

I’m studying right now, my PhD and I’m exploring how are indigenous change-makers remembering, reclaiming, practicing, and integrating warriorship? I define warriorship as standing fiercely with deep love for what matters. That’s how we’re going to change systems. We’re going to stand fiercely with deep love for what matters. And part of what matters most to me more than anything else is how do we be in good relations with indigenous peoples, with ourselves, with each other, with indigenous peoples, with all peoples and with the land. Those are the things we need to stand fiercely with deep love for.

Speaker 3:

And to add to that, it sounds easier than it is. To be in true connection with each other means that you’re understanding who you are, what you represent, and how you meet the person that you meet. And if you’re not willing to understand or able to represent and to look to understand what you represent and how that might affect the one that you’re meeting. You can not be in connection. So it sounds easier, but it’s really deep work. It’s hard work being in connection, truly.

Tatiana Fraser:

So one of the capacities that we talk about when we’re thinking about systems change or systems leadership is locating ourselves in the system, knowing and reflecting on who we are in the systems, because we are subjective in this work, we are not objective. And so we’re kind of shifting from ways of being that are very rational and objective into more of a subjectivity. And that requires a willingness for reflection and learning and interrogating deeply within ourselves, which is what I’m hearing you speak about. And you were also speaking about how systems are traumatizing and so part of systems work is actually healing and healing within ourselves and healing with the system. And so maybe can we just go a little bit deeper and can you maybe talk a little bit about what do you draw on for your own healing in your journey in the world and in the work that you’re doing.

Speaker 5:

So you and I’ve had days together to “I don’t like that word. I don’t know about that word. What do you think about this word?” And I’ll share a couple of pieces around healing or a beautiful teacher has taught me actually that we need to think about it as collective restoration. Collective restoration is… So for me, knowing that we have the ability to draw on the strength and the resilience and the wisdom and of the seven generations that come before us, the seven generations that come after us, we are interconnected across generations. And when we restore or heal ourselves, we’re not just doing that for us. We’re doing it for future children, for future generations. And that’s why it matters so much. It’s so important. And so drawing on ancestral wisdom, resilience and knowing that we must make the changes we talk about in service of those future generations. We have a responsibility, we have a responsibility to restore.

Hannah Cree:

I’m going to cry. So I just thinking about the story of this last year, as I said, has been really hard and we’re working with people that are in trauma and hearing their stories. What has happened has triggered our own trauma. Both my co-founder and I started to realize that we, our mental health and everything else was going right down hill. And it was a moment of saying how can we lead this business and be here for our people if we have not looked at our own stuff yet? And so all of my stuff came up and thank God that it came up the year that I got selected for SheEO, because I seriously don’t think that my business would be here today, flat out would not be here today. And so we’ve had a lot of those pieces of when I have my employee in front of me and telling me for the very first time in 40 years that she was repeatedly raped and had never told anyone.

Hannah Cree:

And because we are able to create the safety and security in a job that that comes out six, nine months later. And those are actually the real issues that we have to address. And because it’s generational trauma and being raised in poverty and having parents that were alcoholics, it just keeps on going. But we really had to start looking at ourselves and getting all the support around us to start to address our own pieces so that other people could see that we’re walking through that.

Hannah Cree:

And so I’ve probably, I think I had at least three business coaches this year, all at the same time. And just diving deep into that. And so in the end, my grandmother, amazing. She’s here today, I guess, in spirit said to me that, “People don’t change when they feel attacked and when they feel judged.” If you tell me all the things I’ve done wrong, I get my backup and I’m going to go into protection mode. But when we feel safe and we feel loved and we feel accepted, we have room to explore who we are and what that is. And so that’s what we realized that we really needed to create in our culture of our business.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it’s the same, it’s being in connection and learning about yourself and not just the cool things. Also the things that are really uncomfortable. Things like, “Wow, I thought maybe not so”, but I’m willing to learn and by being in connection you can deeply learn about yourself and that is healing. It’s not all outside things. The systems change, it’s not an external thing. Systems change by us showing up in truth with ourselves in connection with others and then automatically systems will just lose control because if you’re not a puppet of the system, the system has no hold of you. So the healing is in the connection and learning more deeper about yourself and love is quite important.

Hannah Cree:

Because then you just no longer put up with it.

Speaker 3:

Exactly. It doesn’t have a hold of you. If you live in your truth and not that you’re perfect, but just that you’re willing to look at all the things that are underneath. Anything that wants to manipulate you is like, “What?” And really, you’re not part of it anymore.

Speaker 5:

And then the more people that are saying, “I’m going to take a pass on that.”, the system again, like you say, the system loses its power. So just like Vicky says, “Let’s just go over here and make a new system. Let’s co-create something different, something new or maybe something really old.” There’s this idea of remembering, right? We all come from a place where we are connected to the land, where we’re connected to each other, and I think sometimes it’s not even about… It’s not a new thing. We actually just need to remember.

Speaker 3:

Mainstream has forgotten them. They’ve always been there.

Speaker 5:

Of course.

Tatiana Fraser:

Thank you. I think it’s also important to remember that there are many ways to come to a healing path or to a spiritual path and that our individual is connected to the collective as you’ve all said. So just last question and brief too, because we’re going to move on to taking some questions, but often when we’re working to shift systems, we are working at a cultural level of values and belief system. We’re trying to influence others, mindsets. We’re playing in culture and we need to shift people’s mindsets to bring them along with us. And this is murky territory and it’s not easy. Can you each just share a nugget of some insight or key learning about how you have worked to bring people along with you? And we’ll do brief one, two, three. Thanks.

Speaker 3:

I think the essence for me is that we are people that need love, want to be seen, want to connect and we have culture, religion, whatever we’ve been taught. We have a physical body that looks a certain way and as long as we judge each other based on how we look, we can not connect in who we are. We’re not that different really. So for me, systems change is really making the difference between who are we, how do I show up and what do we have? Because we can’t get rid of that or change it or laugh about it, because really some cultural things are really funny if you shared them in friendship. So yeah.

Hannah Cree:

The advice that was given to me by another entrepreneur in the last few months where we’re looking at, not changing the model, but looking at how to make it more effective and so on. And we really felt like there was just… Do we even do this anymore? And another entrepreneur said, “Listen, I know that when you feel like your pants are on fire and everything is going wrong and everyone close to you knows that stuff is not right in your business. That is actually, you want to like go in and isolate yourself and not, and she’s like, “That’s when you double down and you start talking to everyone and anything and telling the story of what you’re doing and you keep talking to more people and outside of your circles.” And you know what, when that happened, oh my gosh. And I was like, “No, but I don’t.” It was in worst time of my business. And I was asked to speak at more events than I’ve ever been asked to speak at.

Hannah Cree:

And so I kept on talking and now we sit in a place where we have our charity partner redefined who’s in the room with us. And then we’re going to make a world-class model that has been successful for 41 years in Italy. Yet no one’s replicating it. Go figure. And there’s people that are but in different pieces. And so you just have to talk more and share the story and also listen to other people’s stories.

Speaker 5:

My answer is a little bit the same. Ecological social justice systems change is just love. It’s just love. And so people have a fundamental longing to just simply be seen and to be heard and to be loved. And so if I just show up really listening, really seeing, really witnessing and just bring in all the love that I can. Things move. And then you know, what even happens sometimes is they see you back and they hear you and they love you. And then that’s where everything, everything changes.

Tatiana Fraser:

Thank you for your reflections and your insights and your thoughtful sharing. Let’s move now to the audience questions and answer. So we have someone with a mic. Just raise your hand if you have questions.

Speaker 7:

Well thank you for sharing such personal experiences. And I have only one question here. I hear the theme of being you, being connected to who you are, who you truly are. And I’d like to hear from you. How do you connect to your true self? What are your places in ways of doing it?

Speaker 3:

For me that was a little bit simple. Not really simple, but you know I don’t fit. I’m not your typical boy. I’m not your typical girl. So all the conditioning that was out there for a very binary western society didn’t apply to me. I was like, “Why would I take that if it’s not meant for me?” So I’ve always been different and I had to reinvent myself. And I think that, and it’s an ongoing process because I am conditioned like everybody in the system is, that you’re unpacking what is conditioning and who you really are. And if you connect to who you really are, you know exactly who you are, you know exactly who you are. We’ve been trained to not listen to that, but you know exactly who you are and then do the work of undoing the conditioning and showing up with who you are and building that relentlessly in love.

Speaker 5:

And I’ll just add to that. You do know who you are and just love that. We’re also taught not to love ourselves.

Speaker 3:

Conditioning, right? All the conditioning is like you’re not worthy. You’re too big or too small. You’re too whatever. All that stuff that women get. It’s repulsive.

Speaker 5:

But all that shit [crosstalk 00:32:23].

Speaker 3:

That’s what we have and that’s not who we are. You know exactly who you are.

Hannah Cree:

Who you are, what you love, what you want to do. When I’m in hell, it’s like what are the things, it’s on my wall. I love to go kayaking, I love to write. I love to be on podcasts, get back into what you love and then it comes out.

Speaker 5:

Just stay really connected with that.

Tatiana Fraser:

Thanks. Any other questions? Okay. There’s one here and here. Thanks.

Speaker 5:

Are we still having fun? Okay, good. Just checking.

Speaker 8:

Hi, my name is Trina. Thank you so much for being here today and sharing. I need to speak louder. I was just very curious to know how you bring these practices into how you run your business and how you hold your people that work with you and for you.

Hannah Cree:

Yeah, for us, I mean we have the weekly coffees with each employee and we talk about our own personal development of how we write out every morning five things deeply of what you’re grateful for. But actually what we’ve added to that is what are the five things you can control today? Because when your life feels out of control, what are the five things that you can do even for them, if it’s something’s happened around their family, what are some things that you can do to do this? And so a lot of this is around mindset, but it has to be built into the core, right?

Hannah Cree:

It literally is a cultural piece at COMMONGOOD and so those anything… Listen, culture is either unconsciously or consciously created by the founders of the company. And most of us and us included, we thought the story was enough. And then this last year we got hit up in the face and was like, “No, we’ve unconsciously created some pieces that we have to dig deeper.” And then it is about the example, if I’m not doing the work, neither are my employees. So I just have to literally concentrate on myself and do that work and then implement that into everything that we do from the newsletters to how we talk about it.

Speaker 5:

So I’d say pay attention. Pay attention to everything and I’ll share, and I promise it’s short, a really short story about how at the launch of my airline, because I wear my love button everywhere and there’s a whole story we don’t have time for around that. But I come to love myself and know that that has actually part of the gift that I bring. And so I had a PR firm helping me with the launch and I had big love balls and a big bowl full of love buttons.

Speaker 5:

And she’s like, and I love her. It was good advice. She’s just like, “We need for you to be seen as a strong competent professional woman.” Right. And this was good advice. I love her. We need that. You’re a woman trying to start an airline called Woman Air. And it was one of those moments where I had to say, “Am I going to live what I believe and just live it every day.” And so yes, in the media pictures, there’s great big love balls and everyone’s wearing a love button and so you just live it and you notice and you notice and you notice and you live it and you live it. And when you screw it up, you sort it out differently for next time.

Speaker 3:

To live it with your people. People think CEO desk and whatever. 95% of my time I engage with my users and they call me, I pick up the phone and they said, “I can’t believe I talked to you.” I was like, “Well, that’s my work.” I need to be in connection with you. I need to understand you. I need to know who you are and I want you to know who I am and the values that we have. We pay living wage to all of us and we employ Alinker users. All of us. Well, Tanya is on the waiting list for a small one, but that’s we employ Alinker users. This world, we have all the same, how do you say that, wages and rules apply to us similarly.

Tatiana Fraser:

Maybe I’ll just add that there’s some really interesting work that’s been done around the idea of collective care organizationally and practices that you can implement and policies around care in an organization you can refer to. Maybe one last question. I saw a hand over here earlier and then I think we’re going to have to wrap.

Speaker 9:

Thank you guys so much. My question is around basically what you guys are talking about in terms of paying attention and being present. How is that or how do you see that being sustainable when you do scale up to larger organizations, larger partners, working with multiple customers for yourself? For instance, talking about being on the phone with each and every single person. How is that sustainable?

Speaker 3:

By taking time and really building relationships. I have my distributors in various countries. I take a lot of time with them to build a relationship before their distributor. And so then they can become an offset of us and do the same work in the same value system as that we work. So it’s really taking time and relationship building doesn’t come over time. I mean that doesn’t come in short time. You need to take time.

Tatiana Fraser:

Thank you. We’re at time now. That’s I’m sorry that I have to cut this short. Thank you to our speakers for sharing with us here in the Wisdom Room. This has been Getting at The Root Causes: Using Business to Transform Systems and this is part of the systems.world track. My name is Tatiana Fraser and thank you all for joining us.

Jessy Wang:

This has been a special episode of sheeo.world, a podcast about redesigning the world, a SheEO global summit edition.

 

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